forum Girls are Fighting, Help.
Started by @All_The_Snakes_In_Ireland
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@All_The_Snakes_In_Ireland

Hey, I need some help with character dynamics for a story.

My core cast is four people, two men and two women. Now I'm not proud of this (nor did I intend it to be this way) but a bit of a love triangle has devolved between the second male lead character and both women.
I wanted to spice things up by adding some conflict amongst the main characters, but that turned out to be harder than I thought.

Let me try to explain:
Man 1 is incredibly nice and has no problems with anyone.
Man 2 and man 1 are long time best friends, so no problems there.
Unsurprisingly, both woman 1 and woman 2 like man 2, and obviously he likes them both as well.

So now the only two characters that have a potential to dislike each other are the two women.

But heres the other problem:
Both the ladies are laid-back, logical, well educated, generally level-headed women who aren't prone to being overly emotional. They're personalities are very similar, so much so that they both have feelings for the same man, but that's the only reason I can think for them to dislike each other. (also man 2 is shy and passive so any kind of belligerent/aggressive sexual tension with anyone just doesn't track with the character)

So yeah, the only real reason I can think for these women to dislike each other is that they have the same crush. but I hate that: both my lead female characters fighting over a guy? lame.

I just can't think of any other way to add some aggression between characters.

For further context, this story is essentially a big treasure hunt for a long lost ancient fortune. All four are dedicated towards the same goal for mostly the same reasons and all choose to be a part of the team. (So I can't anything for anyone to disagree about there.)

I'd be happy to provide further descriptions of the characters if that can help, but does anyone have any ideas? I'm really stuck.

Thanks

@LiteralCyborg group

I totally get where you're coming from here, the love triangle "we both like him so now I hate her" thing is really overused.

My best suggestion would be to play into one of the ladies' insecurities. Make one of them have some sort of deep-rooted self esteem issue and make the other lady have that exact problem completely sorted out. One of them would desperately want to be like the other but wouldn't believe she could, so she'd lash out instead.

Another clash could come from the fact that they are so similar. It's hard to explain, but essentially the girls would see way to much of themselves in each other and that would p*ss them off.

I don't know if these will help, I'm not the best writer or anything, but I hope I can at least give you some ideas!

@All_The_Snakes_In_Ireland

That's a great Idea. Hey do you mind if I run something by you and get your opinion?

Actually first, just for clarity sake, woman 1 is named Haley, and woman 2 is named Dawn, man 1 is Tom, and man 2 is Jonh.

This story is actually a sort sequel to another story that starred only Tom, Jonh, and Haley.

Tom and Jonh have been BFFs for 20+ years, but Haley was a new to town and didn't have any friends. By the end of the first story the three of them are a tight-knit trio and everything is great. However, the dynamic changes in the sequel when Dawn enters (or actually re-enters)the picture.

When they were in college, Jonh and Dawn used to date but broke up and lost touch for about 10 years, now that the plot has reunited them it's a lot like old times when Tom, Jonh, and Dawn were the main group and now Haley is starting to feel like she's being edged out (which isn't really what's happening but it's how she feels, ya know?)

She feels hurt and angry that (she perceives) Dawn is taking her spot as the #3 in the friend group when Haley was there "first".

I thought about making this being source of tension, but, and tell me if this makes sense, it just seems like a platonic version of the same love triangle?

I know that in real life losing platonic friends can be just as devastating as loosing a lover but I'm worried that it won't read like that in the story. Especially because Haley has less than platonic feelings for Jonh. The conflict is still two girls fighting over the attention of a guy, even if that affection isn't necessarily romantic, you know what I mean?

So I guess my question is: does that make sense? and is it different enough from a romantic love triangle to work without seeming cliche or degrading to my female leads?
I think your advice about having one be jealous of a characteristic the other possesses in a great idea, but the jealously still seems to be over who is is currency the #3 in the friend group.

I dunno. But I think you have a really great idea, and I'm definitely going to think about it more and see what I can find.
Thanks so much for your help!

@LiteralCyborg group

@All_The_Snakes_In_Ireland
That sounds perfect! I've actually slowly lost touch with a friend group before and it does create a source of tension and insecurity, especially if you feel like you're being replaced. I think if you frame it as "two girls fighting for a spot in the friend group" rather than "two girls fighting over a guy" it should end up different enough. My advice would be to make the whole being pushed out of the group thing the main conflict, as in the love triangle adds on to the tension that's already there instead of creating new tension. As long as you are specific with the conflict and inner monologue it should work really well!
(Just a suggestion: it would work even better if Haley has been pushed out of a friend group before, maybe when she was a kid. Make it hit close to home, y'know?)
((Like I said, I am NOT a professional writer, so do with my advice as you will :p))

Deleted user

I'm gleaning dynamics, but not much personality or motivation that should be the source of this dynamic.

Tom, John, and Haley were the story-adventuring trio, and originally—as I understood it—Haley and Dawn began both crushing on Jonh?

In the first place, then…why would Haley crush on John? Does Haley find shy, gentle guys attractive instead of boring? Does she feel she needs to protect and provide for people, and finds that only shy guys respond well to her ambitions? Has she been harmed by an abusive relationship before and values shyness, consideration, and compassion? Does she think he's a fixer-upper—like she can make him more confident and change him for the better?

Even if it's enough that Haley is motivated by her feelings, like some pagan love god shot her with an arrow…I think there's something more involved in Haley's psychology that should make it make more sense.

It must also be a different reason than Dawn has. Maybe Haley says to herself without knowing it, 'My ex was abusive, now is time for me to be with somebody who's actually a kind person—I need Jonh so I can heal' whereas Dawn says to herself, 'My identity and ego is wrapped up in being a good influence and changing somebody for the better—I need Jonh so that I have purpose in this world'.

So then it's not just "Women, am I right?" Like they don't have shallow desires, but instead have unique depths and dimensions. In a way, even if it seemed to be about Jonh, it's not really about Jonh at all.

But then consider this: If neither of these women were jealous, say they all sat down and talked about their feelings off-camera—and that Jonh agreed to be on this polyamorous timeshare! Everything is fair, everybody is considered, everybody gets an equal share of what they want… humor me on that for a moment.

Now what are Haley and Dawn going to fight about?

Is communication so important to one, that the other judges her for it like, "Wow you really love the sound of your own voice"? And the other considers being laconic to be rude?

Is one more pragmatic or instinctive like "If there's ever a problem, we do something about it and we do it now! We have to do something! I hate when people just stand there and do nothing!" whereas the other prefers to gather information and think things through… even though it looks like doing nothing, because acting out without thinking seems uncivilized and volatile, and they hate people who are like that?

Maybe one person is naturally sensitive and sentimental, whereas the other takes that as manipulative and a waste of a life to spend time with—because she wasn't never allowed to be emotional as a child, so she's less jealous of "you got my man" and more jealous that "you get to live in the way that I was never allowed to live."

Or does one apologize by pretending that a conflict never happened because she thinks that actually saying "I'm sorry" only happens in movies or television shows—whereas to the other, it's basic courtesy?

Things like that. Actual personality conflicts. Or more the circumstance conflicts, like maybe Dawn can't trust Haley after Dawn was framed for a theft and Haley reacted to the false evidence instead of loyalty/camaraderie like "I don't know how all this evidence came together like this, but I know Dawn wouldn't do such a thing," like Dawn feels that Haley should have known.

@All_The_Snakes_In_Ireland

Cyborg, you may not be a professional writer, but you sure are a good one! Thank you so much for your help, I'm definitely going to take your advice.

Elly, wow I'm amazed at how much thought you put into my story and characters, I really appreciate you taking to so much time to help me, it means a lot.
For the most part I think I have a pretty good handle on my characters' backstories and the reason for their attitudes and actions, but I realize it didn't actually provide that much information about their personalities above. So if you'll permit me, and I'll try not to be too long-winded, I'd like to introduce you briefly to my characters.
I'd love your opinion on if you feel as if their backgrounds are consistent with their dispositions.

But first I should set the scene and tone of the story. Even though it is a treasure hunt, the story takes place in a painfully realistic city in Missouri, it's one of those small towns that was once had charm but now is little more than big-box stores and dilapidated Victorian houses.
All my characters are a bit older, in their mid and late 30s. They all (expect Tom),reflect the town in the way that they too have gotten older and lost their sense of wonder. The treasure hunt is not so much about finding the treasure but more so about finding out if it's possible to have great adventures after your youth fades

Likewise, all of them have a fair bit of baggage that they carry around.

Haley is the only one who wasn't born and raised in the town, instead she came from New England and was born into an esteemed, academic, old-money family that has very old-world views on wealth and propriety.
Haley never had any sort of wild rebellious phase, but rather through the first 30 years of her life she tried diligently to fit into the culture. In her 20s she sought after men that would impress her parents, hoping that a socially profitable marriage to a fellow Ivy-leaguer would allow her to fit into her society.
Several lukewarm long-term relationships failed for various reasons, and these failures only widened the divide she felt to her family and her own self worth.

Being out of that environment and meeting the other main characters has allowed some healing to take place, however she still secretly holds the same personal insecurities and negative self-worth that she developed as a teenager.

Tom and Dawn have both been lower-middle class all their lives. and Jonh grew up on the other side of the poverty line. None of the three place any of the importance on wealth, higher-education, or family name that Haley is used to. The main reason behind her attraction to Jonh is that he is remarkably inert and steady. He is mild-mannered and predictable, but also reliable, warm, and a safe.
Haley is used to a world where "friendships" are more like mutually beneficial business deals, and where there is always an underlying reason for the relationship. So now being in a genuine friendship with no ulterior motive is foreign and wonderful to her.
Haley had no brothers or platonic male friends prior to this, so Jonh and Tom are two of the first healthy relationships with men she has had.

To be honest, because Haley has never had a close non-sexual relationship with a man, she's come to believe that that isn't a dynamic that's possible between single heterosexual people. She views Jonh's general friendliness and devotion towards her as a romantic affection, and the whole thing becomes a bit of a chicken and egg situation where what began as mutual-politeness turned into mutual-attraction and desire.

Deep down Haley understands that it's her that will need to fix her self-worth issues herself, however she believes to feel safe enough to do that she needs to first be a steady committed relationship.

Jonh like I said had an unideal childhood, He had no mother and a mostly absent father who struggled with subtense addiction and would often verbally, and sometimes physically, abuse his son. Of course this dramatically shaped the man that Jonh grew in to, Jonh avoids conflict at all costs, rarely advocates for himself, and feels deeply unworthy of affection. He's often afraid to make decisions and therefore is a passive participant in his own life. Jonh seldom experiences any feeling in its extreme, and is generally emotional numbed, seldom feeling very happy or sad.
However, he's incredibly gentle, thoughtful, and understanding. Part of this is a deep-rooted fear of abandonment, part of it is a genuine kindness that wants to ensure no one else feels as emotionally homeless as he does. Despite of, or maybe because of, a lifetime of feeling insufficient Jonh is intentional about trying to make his (admittedly few) friends feel worthy. Additionally he is loyal beyond a flaut.

All and he is a very safe relationship.

Which brings us to Dawn, poor dawn. As I said before, Dawn and Jonh were in a relationship about 10 years prior to the events of the first story. It was Jonh who ended things back then, essentially he didn't feel as if he was good enough or deserved to be with her and that she desevred better. It was a painful experience for both of them and they had had no connection since.

In the interim Dawn married one of her classmates, named Jackson, who had a very weak heart (physiologically, not metaphorically). Before they were married, they both understood that there was a real possibility that Jackson's heart could give out unexpectedly, and he wasn't expected to live longer than 10 mores years. This was part of the reason Dawn and Jackson married so quickly, they spent their marriage checking off as many boxes on Jackson's bucket list as possible and it was good. Sadly he did end up passing away, about 4 years prior to this story.
When we meet Dawn, she is responsible for the care of her two aging parents as well as both of Jackson's. Jackson had two younger sisters. Both are spendthrifts, one of whom has a gambling problem, both of whom also live with Dawn. Dawn is gravely in debt, she is constantly working and has no social life what-so-ever, her only companions are stress and loneliness.
Dawn also has a thorough knowledge of the Victorian-era history of the city, which is how she ended up involved int he treasure hunt story.

As you can imagine now more than ever, she needs a safe relationship. However original she didn't intend to actually try to restart a relationship with Jonh, even though the desire was there. She felt guilty over the idea of bringing Jonh into her mess of a life, ironically this this time around she is the one feeling that the other deserves better. Dawn is in conflict with her feelings verses the reality in which she lives.

Jonh recognizes that he has feelings for both women however he isn't able to actually comprehend that either of them actually reciprocate those feelings, he has convinced himself that they both are merely being polite. Jonh is a hopeless romantic with hopelessly low self esteem, he wants almost nothing more than to get married and rise children, but he's 36 and still a bachelor. He feels like he's running out of time and that things wil only get worse as he gets older.
On a symbolic level, in his mind he loves the idea of Haley because she represents how new beginnings, no matter how difficult, are possible. He loves the idea of Dawn because she's a reminder of simpler days, back when they had all the time in the world.

And that's kind of the gist of it.
All three in some way want a partnership/marriage because they think that is the platform on which they can heal from old wounds. And all three are hard-wired to instinctual think those relationship must be romantic and they view the situation through that filter.

Anyway, back to the original problem of girls fighting. Hopefully now you have an idea of what it is emotionally they want and how that could very easily manifest itself as a classic love-triangle like thing.
I dunno, I don't really have a conclusion to this post more like, yeah, that's how it be.

I'm trying to think of the best ways to give my characters what they need, even if it may not be what they think they want. I know that in real life deep issues like this don't have any magical cures and I'm not really looking for an emotional Deus-ex-machia but I do want to at least put do hope on the horizon for my characters, ya know?
I just don't know if the best way to do that is to have them couple off or what.

Anyway I know that was really long and I really appreciate the help.
Thanks again everybody.

Deleted user

@BimBoy, that's always my first thought as a quick solution to "oh no, catty stereotypes and/or toxic masculine posessiveness—a love triangle, in my adventure fiction? It's more likely than you think."

I still think it'd be fun and funny.

But with good reason, some people in the polyamory community don't appreciate fictional love triangles being 'fixed up' in this way because then it's like saying that polyamory is a remedy for bad relationships…If somebody gets jealous, for example, then they're probably monogamous by orientation, and then it's not good to expect them to change their orientation…and then heterosexual throuples (for those who do know, that's a couple made up of three people in a relationship) get overly represented in real life because of unicorn hunters and harem-hunters…Things like that.

Deleted user

@All_The_Snakes_In_Ireland thank you for all this information, I hope that I can help…

So, the potential that I see in this dynamic is close to Mary, Frank, and Beth in Merrily We Roll Along—Mary crushes on Frank, keeps it inside when Frank marries Beth, and even warns Beth when they meet a third woman who is prone to "making" men cheat on their wives. So, just because Mary also likes Frank doesn't mean that she automatically hates Beth for taking her place when Mary was there first.

I can think of Dawn as being the Mary type of "genuinely Haley's friend and will set aside my feelings so that the right result will happen organically—and if that's Jonh and Haley then it is, nostalgia goggles are a private thing when everybody has moved on."

But I can also imagine Dawn going, "Who is this rich brat who's never really had to suffer in life and doesn't even know basic Victorian history? Why is she still here? Jonh's way too good for her but she keeps making the moves on him and I think she is a bad influence." So even if feelings of posessiveness or protectiveness are about Jonh, it's as believable that Dawn dislikes Haley as it is Haley dislikes Dawn—and it's not the story outright saying that "Haley is bad for Jonh, all readers have to be on Team DawnJonh" like some love triangles in fiction will make one contender so very unbearably obviously shrewish or boring or abusive…As long as it's not like that, I think it can still work.

@All_The_Snakes_In_Ireland

I don't think I want to go in a poly direction, but thanks for the suggestion Bim.
I'm thinking about your advice, Elly and I think it just might work. Thanks so much for your insight, you've got quite a gift.