forum Debate. Debate. Debate.

Started March 14, 2019 by Deleted user

tune

Edit topic

Because it's unethical to pay workers $7.25 an hour when they have to realistically support themselves and their family. Sure, it's fine for some teenagers looking for a summer job, but it's too low to make a decent living off.

Why do we pay people more than minimum wage? (Slightly rhetorical but I expect an answer.)

Because some jobs require higher training, but I feel like people undervalue people who do jobs in, say, retail or the food industry, because they still take a lot of work.

In other words, there's a scarcity. So the price goes up.
Do they take a lot of work? I mean, it's exhausting, but almost anyone can do it. It doesn't require brains or brawn or a high level education. So why should they get paid a lot? The boss isn't paying for their time, it's for the work s/he gets out of it. And because anyone (approximately, of course) can do it, it is lower value; and thus is paid less.

**All jobs require training

Make it so minimum wage jobs have the skills to transfer over to career based positions.

What has that to do with the pay?

Everything. People need the skill set to obtain higher pay and better jobs.

**All jobs require training

True. But some take only a little bit that the lower manager can teach as the job gets done.

Make it so minimum wage jobs have the skills to transfer over to career based positions.

What has that to do with the pay?

Everything. People need the skill set to obtain higher pay and better jobs.

But the jobs are not meant to help the worker. They are to help the boss. We could argue about this, but the job culture of America is self serving, as is much of the fallen human nature.

Because it's unethical to pay workers $7.25 an hour when they have to realistically support themselves and their family. Sure, it's fine for some teenagers looking for a summer job, but it's too low to make a decent living off.

Why do we pay people more than minimum wage? (Slightly rhetorical but I expect an answer.)

Because some jobs require higher training, but I feel like people undervalue people who do jobs in, say, retail or the food industry, because they still take a lot of work.

In other words, there's a scarcity. So the price goes up.
Do they take a lot of work? I mean, it's exhausting, but almost anyone can do it. It doesn't require brains or brawn or a high level education. So why should they get paid a lot? The boss isn't paying for their time, it's for the work s/he gets out of it. And because anyone (approximately, of course) can do it, it is lower value; and thus is paid less.

Actually. You'd be surprised how much brains & brawn it takes to work a minimum wage job.
Most people with minimum wage jobs are students (trying to pay their way through a ridiculous tuition), immigrants (trying to pay just to live in this country), people with mental health issues (trying to pay for their livelihood, or have some independence), or people who have always had nothing in their lives (trying to make this better)

its people like that who deserve to be paid at least a proper amount to put food on their table and support a roof over their heads.

Make it so minimum wage jobs have the skills to transfer over to career based positions.

What has that to do with the pay?

Everything. People need the skill set to obtain higher pay and better jobs.

But the jobs are not meant to help the worker. They are to help the boss. We could argue about this, but the job culture of America is self serving, as is much of the fallen human nature.

Customers, really. Because they pay. The boss gets paid, they don't pay the company

Actually. You'd be surprised how much brains & brawn it takes to work a minimum wage job.
Most people with minimum wage jobs are students (trying to pay their way through a ridiculous tuition), immigrants (trying to pay just to live in this country), people with mental health issues (trying to pay for their livelihood, or have some independence), or people who have always had nothing in their lives (trying to make this better)

its people like that who deserve to be paid at least a proper amount to put food on their table and support a roof over their heads.

Name some examples.
And I'm sure you're right about who get's those jobs. But like I said, the jobs aren't there for the workers.
Why do they deserve this?

Actually. You'd be surprised how much brains & brawn it takes to work a minimum wage job.
Most people with minimum wage jobs are students (trying to pay their way through a ridiculous tuition), immigrants (trying to pay just to live in this country), people with mental health issues (trying to pay for their livelihood, or have some independence), or people who have always had nothing in their lives (trying to make this better)

its people like that who deserve to be paid at least a proper amount to put food on their table and support a roof over their heads.

Name some examples.
And I'm sure you're right about who get's those jobs. But like I said, the jobs aren't there for the workers.
Why do they deserve this?

• Basic, basic business knowledge
• Ability to work with others
• Further, ability to work with difficult people
• Ability to follow directions
• Ability to handle stress
• Ability to do difficult and unpleasant tasks
• Ability to focus

Actually. You'd be surprised how much brains & brawn it takes to work a minimum wage job.
Most people with minimum wage jobs are students (trying to pay their way through a ridiculous tuition), immigrants (trying to pay just to live in this country), people with mental health issues (trying to pay for their livelihood, or have some independence), or people who have always had nothing in their lives (trying to make this better)

its people like that who deserve to be paid at least a proper amount to put food on their table and support a roof over their heads.

Name some examples.
And I'm sure you're right about who get's those jobs. But like I said, the jobs aren't there for the workers.
Why do they deserve this?

So fricken commanding, dude. Jeepers.

mmkay–example of brains working at starbucks:

A barista needs to be able to do really quick math to properly queue drinks in a way that they can get them out to the customers quickly and efficiently. They also need to be able to think on their feet for all kinds of situations that customers, the bar, the machines, etc throw at you only a second by second basis. To be a barista your brain needs to be going a mile a minute. Not to mention the herculean task of ordering all the stock for the store and maintaining the inventory, creating schedules, promoting events, learning new recipes.
Brawns: The endurance and patience one needs is incredible. A barista is literally on their feet for their entire shift, running around, bending, lifting, cleaning, stretching, etc. and shifts on average are 6 to 8 hours long. Lets not forget all the bullshit they have to deal with from the customers.

Im sure that this applies to most retail/food places.
It takes a lot out of a person to work a minimum wage job.

The jobs are there for the workers Dom. If there were no workers there would be no production. Why do you think they're always hiring?

They deserve it because they're there. Putting up with all the shit that they have to, to make one lousy asshole happy.

Eris said it a lot better than I did lmao

With my experience as a busser added, you have to think fast to know how to balance dishes effectively to carry them through a crowded buffet area without dropping any, standing and walking for hours, finding the most effective ways to scrape dishes because if you don't do it quickly enough they pile up and it becomes worse. It felt like chess sometimes, trying to make a path and figure out what the most effective choices are.

Actually. You'd be surprised how much brains & brawn it takes to work a minimum wage job.
Most people with minimum wage jobs are students (trying to pay their way through a ridiculous tuition), immigrants (trying to pay just to live in this country), people with mental health issues (trying to pay for their livelihood, or have some independence), or people who have always had nothing in their lives (trying to make this better)

its people like that who deserve to be paid at least a proper amount to put food on their table and support a roof over their heads.

Name some examples.
And I'm sure you're right about who get's those jobs. But like I said, the jobs aren't there for the workers.
Why do they deserve this?

So fricken commanding, dude. Jeepers.

mmkay–example of brains working at starbucks:

A barista needs to be able to do really quick math to properly queue drinks in a way that they can get them out to the customers quickly and efficiently. They also need to be able to think on their feet for all kinds of situations that customers, the bar, the machines, etc throw at you only a second by second basis. To be a barista your brain needs to be going a mile a minute. Not to mention the herculean task of ordering all the stock for the store and maintaining the inventory, creating schedules, promoting events, learning new recipes.
Brawns: The endurance and patience one needs is incredible. A barista is literally on their feet for their entire shift, running around, bending, lifting, cleaning, stretching, etc. and shifts on average are 6 to 8 hours long. Lets not forget all the bullshit they have to deal with from the customers.

Im sure that this applies to most retail/food places.
It takes a lot out of a person to work a minimum wage job.

The jobs are there for the workers Dom. If there were no workers there would be no production. Why do you think they're always hiring?

They deserve it because they're there. Putting up with all the shit that they have to, to make one lousy asshole happy.

I will take your first statement as a compliment.
You forgot to list the part where you have to ooze charisma 24/7. I mean that one one top of everything else is the real cherry. But pretty much what you mentioned is needing a quick mind, decent memory, and to be physically able, something most people have. It's not like you need to do more than basic math, you just have to do it quickly (which hopefully graduates can do these days but Idk). I agree with the brawn bit except for one thing. You never mentioned the quiet times. There's always (in my experience) a multitude of breaks. They might last only 20 seconds to five minutes, but they're there. Obviously it's exhausting, but it's not a neverending six hours.
I still disagree. The jobs aren't for the workers. Baseline, it's about raking in as much money as possible for the guy on top. As a low worker, you are a drone that doesn't matter. (Except luckily we have some labor laws.)
Why does this make them deserve it? Everyone deals with this stuff when they don't have a job, why is this different? They are being hired to properly transfer substance in exchange for money. Everything else is grease for the gears. If it had to do with their deserving it, wouldn't it be a travesty for all the folks not getting paid, yet dealing nonetheless? Man, using those words right next to each other is funny.

With my experience as a busser added, you have to think fast to know how to balance dishes effectively to carry them through a crowded buffet area without dropping any, standing and walking for hours, finding the most effective ways to scrape dishes because if you don't do it quickly enough they pile up and it becomes worse. It felt like chess sometimes, trying to make a path and figure out what the most effective choices are.

But aren't these easily gained skills that required little of you to -frick what's that word… ooze into yourself… goes to Thesaurus.com- learn, comprehend, ingest?

Actually. You'd be surprised how much brains & brawn it takes to work a minimum wage job.
Most people with minimum wage jobs are students (trying to pay their way through a ridiculous tuition), immigrants (trying to pay just to live in this country), people with mental health issues (trying to pay for their livelihood, or have some independence), or people who have always had nothing in their lives (trying to make this better)

its people like that who deserve to be paid at least a proper amount to put food on their table and support a roof over their heads.

Name some examples.
And I'm sure you're right about who get's those jobs. But like I said, the jobs aren't there for the workers.
Why do they deserve this?

So fricken commanding, dude. Jeepers.

mmkay–example of brains working at starbucks:

A barista needs to be able to do really quick math to properly queue drinks in a way that they can get them out to the customers quickly and efficiently. They also need to be able to think on their feet for all kinds of situations that customers, the bar, the machines, etc throw at you only a second by second basis. To be a barista your brain needs to be going a mile a minute. Not to mention the herculean task of ordering all the stock for the store and maintaining the inventory, creating schedules, promoting events, learning new recipes.
Brawns: The endurance and patience one needs is incredible. A barista is literally on their feet for their entire shift, running around, bending, lifting, cleaning, stretching, etc. and shifts on average are 6 to 8 hours long. Lets not forget all the bullshit they have to deal with from the customers.

Im sure that this applies to most retail/food places.
It takes a lot out of a person to work a minimum wage job.

The jobs are there for the workers Dom. If there were no workers there would be no production. Why do you think they're always hiring?

They deserve it because they're there. Putting up with all the shit that they have to, to make one lousy asshole happy.

I will take your first statement as a compliment.

It wasnt.

You forgot to list the part where you have to ooze charisma 24/7. I mean that one one top of everything else is the real cherry. But pretty much what you mentioned is needing a quick mind, decent memory, and to be physically able, something most people have. It's not like you need to do more than basic math, you just have to do it quickly (which hopefully graduates can do these days but Idk).

No. Its not like that at all. It's not 'basic math' its math on top of comprehension, organization, and so much more. A Barista doesnt get to sit there and go 2 drinks plus 2 drinks equals 4 drinks LOL. No it's "how fast can I make these drinks, make this food–oh wait this guy asked about this promotion–oh crap I still have to clean the floors, did I restock my milks? crap when is my 1:1? oh no im out of cups. Shit more drinks, okay I guess I gotta do my other stuff later." and it never ends. A good barista knows how to sort that all so all of their tasks get done on time and properly.

I agree with the brawn bit except for one thing. You never mentioned the quiet times. There's always (in my experience) a multitude of breaks. They might last only 20 seconds to five minutes, but they're there. Obviously it's exhausting, but it's not a neverending six hours

You've never worked a real minimum wage before have you? There's no such thing as a break. Honestly. Im not saying this for the sake of the argument. Im being 100 real right now. Breaks are a myth.

I still disagree. The jobs aren't for the workers. Baseline, it's about raking in as much money as possible for the guy on top. As a low worker, you are a drone that doesn't matter. (Except luckily we have some labor laws.)

You completely disregarded the fact that I said without the workers there would be no production.

Why does this make them deserve it? Everyone deals with this stuff when they don't have a job, why is this different? They are being hired to properly transfer substance in exchange for money. Everything else is grease for the gears. If it had to do with their deserving it, wouldn't it be a travesty for all the folks not getting paid, yet dealing nonetheless? Man, using those words right next to each other is funny.

Everyone deserves the right to live comfortably. To be able to provide through their hard work. Let me tell you–I worked harder as a starbucks barista (and went home crying from stress on a daily basis) than I do working for microsoft and I get paid a SHIT ton more than I used to.

What people without jobs are getting paid proper wages?
None.
Unemployment doesnt count. That only supplies a portion of your previous job's wages and if youve never worked then you dont get money. And while on unemployment you have to prove that you are actively looking for another job. so…..??

But aren't these easily gained skills that required little of you to

Some of you have no idea how much people in the veterinarian industry makes and shows. I make minimum wage as an assistant. Techs get paid more, but a lot of them leave the industry within like 3 years because the amount they get paid isn't proportionate to the effort they put in. And I'm sure there's more positions out there that require very specific training but get terrible pay.

Minimum age here is 14.60 CAD (around 11 USD) and it's still not enough to afford a decent 1 bedroom apartment. So even if I was making slightly more I'm still can't afford a 1 bedroom apartment, and that's not even taking into account other expenses like food or transportation.

I will take your first statement as a compliment.

It wasnt.

Oho! But it still could be taken as such.

You forgot to list the part where you have to ooze charisma 24/7. I mean that one one top of everything else is the real cherry. But pretty much what you mentioned is needing a quick mind, decent memory, and to be physically able, something most people have. It's not like you need to do more than basic math, you just have to do it quickly (which hopefully graduates can do these days but Idk).

No. Its not like that at all. It's not 'basic math' its math on top of comprehension, organization, and so much more. A Barista doesnt get to sit there and go 2 drinks plus 2 drinks equals 4 drinks LOL. No it's "how fast can I make these drinks, make this food–oh wait this guy asked about this promotion–oh crap I still have to clean the floors, did I restock my milks? crap when is my 1:1? oh no im out of cups. Shit more drinks, okay I guess I gotta do my other stuff later." and it never ends. A good barista knows how to sort that all so all of their tasks get done on time and properly.

I mean, I haven't done as much as you have obviously, but I have for the last five (?) years done the work of long shifts at a beloved ice cream booth that is open one week a year in the middle of summer with thousands of people around. So, I'm going to say I kind of get it.

I agree with the brawn bit except for one thing. You never mentioned the quiet times. There's always (in my experience) a multitude of breaks. They might last only 20 seconds to five minutes, but they're there. Obviously it's exhausting, but it's not a neverending six hours

You've never worked a real minimum wage before have you? There's no such thing as a break. Honestly. Im not saying this for the sake of the argument. Im being 100 real right now. Breaks are a myth.

I mean, technicalities. I may have. I've held three jobs. Are you super serious? Because even in the job I mentioned I still got breaks. Did people really come in every literal minute?

I still disagree. The jobs aren't for the workers. Baseline, it's about raking in as much money as possible for the guy on top. As a low worker, you are a drone that doesn't matter. (Except luckily we have some labor laws.)

You completely disregarded the fact that I said without the workers there would be no production.

Well yes, but the workers are replaceable. (Important to note in this argument is that I am talking in theory of Capitalism here and I myself am a bit more empathetic to the plight of the proletariat.) And the replaceable workers don't matter as people as new drones can be easily bought.

Why does this make them deserve it? Everyone deals with this stuff when they don't have a job, why is this different? They are being hired to properly transfer substance in exchange for money. Everything else is grease for the gears. If it had to do with their deserving it, wouldn't it be a travesty for all the folks not getting paid, yet dealing nonetheless? Man, using those words right next to each other is funny.

Everyone deserves the right to live comfortably. To be able to provide through their hard work. Let me tell you–I worked harder as a starbucks barista (and went home crying from stress on a daily basis) than I do working for microsoft and I get paid a SHIT ton more than I used to.

How odd. Does your job now take more intellect or education? (And aw poor Eris.)
Why does everyone deserve that? What do you mean the right to live comfortably? Does it mean having a comfortable life, or the right to attempt to gain one? And don't we live better than kings of old did? Even the broke college students?

What people without jobs are getting paid proper wages?
None.
Unemployment doesnt count. That only supplies a portion of your previous job's wages and if youve never worked then you dont get money. And while on unemployment you have to prove that you are actively looking for another job. so…..??

What about unemployment? I was saying that those stresses that you talked about are daily dealt with by all people, so it doesn't make sense for an employer to be paying for that.

With my experience as a busser added, you have to think fast to know how to balance dishes effectively to carry them through a crowded buffet area without dropping any, standing and walking for hours, finding the most effective ways to scrape dishes because if you don't do it quickly enough they pile up and it becomes worse. It felt like chess sometimes, trying to make a path and figure out what the most effective choices are.

But aren't these easily gained skills that required little of you to -frick what's that word… ooze into yourself… goes to Thesaurus.com- learn, comprehend, ingest?

No, they kind of just tossed me in after half a day of training and had me wing it.

I mean, I haven't done as much as you have obviously, but I have for the last five (?) years done the work of long shifts at a beloved ice cream booth that is open one week a year in the middle of summer with thousands of people around. So, I'm going to say I kind of get it.

I would hardly say that one week a year is comparable to the people that do it every day.

I agree with the brawn bit except for one thing. You never mentioned the quiet times. There's always (in my experience) a multitude of breaks. They might last only 20 seconds to five minutes, but they're there. Obviously it's exhausting, but it's not a neverending six hours

You've never worked a real minimum wage before have you? There's no such thing as a break. Honestly. Im not saying this for the sake of the argument. Im being 100 real right now. Breaks are a myth.

I mean, technicalities. I may have. I've held three jobs. Are you super serious? Because even in the job I mentioned I still got breaks. Did people really come in every literal minute?

Have you ever been to a Starbucks? I used to work at one that had lines out the door every single day. When I worked at the mall people would trail in with no regard for anything else but especially not the employees. Breaks in retail is the 5 seconds of breathing you get between each task.

I still disagree. The jobs aren't for the workers. Baseline, it's about raking in as much money as possible for the guy on top. As a low worker, you are a drone that doesn't matter. (Except luckily we have some labor laws.)

You completely disregarded the fact that I said without the workers there would be no production.

Well yes, but the workers are replaceable. (Important to note in this argument is that I am talking in theory of Capitalism here and I myself am a bit more empathetic to the plight of the proletariat.) And the replaceable workers don't matter as people as new drones can be easily bought.

Workers are only replaceable if there are workers. Which is what I keep saying.

Why does this make them deserve it? Everyone deals with this stuff when they don't have a job, why is this different? They are being hired to properly transfer substance in exchange for money. Everything else is grease for the gears. If it had to do with their deserving it, wouldn't it be a travesty for all the folks not getting paid, yet dealing nonetheless? Man, using those words right next to each other is funny.

Everyone deserves the right to live comfortably. To be able to provide through their hard work. Let me tell you–I worked harder as a starbucks barista (and went home crying from stress on a daily basis) than I do working for microsoft and I get paid a SHIT ton more than I used to.

How odd. Does your job now take more intellect or education? (And aw poor Eris.)
Why does everyone deserve that? What do you mean the right to live comfortably? Does it mean having a comfortable life, or the right to attempt to gain one? And don't we live better than kings of old did? Even the broke college students?

It's not odd…? A job at MS requires more than working at starbucks, Dom. That's a nobrainer.

I understand your need to play devil's advocate but come on. You dont need to be asking questions you already know the answer to. Especially questions Ive already answered that you're just asking in a different way.

Everyone deserves the right to live happily and safe and that includes having the proper resources to support themselves and their families if need be.
We dont live better than the ancient Kings Dom. I dont feast every night, have riches enough to conquer other countries, have endless people trying to get into my good graces. College students starve while Kings didn't. WHat a ridiculous thing to say.

What people without jobs are getting paid proper wages?
None.
Unemployment doesnt count. That only supplies a portion of your previous job's wages and if youve never worked then you dont get money. And while on unemployment you have to prove that you are actively looking for another job. so…..??

What about unemployment? I was saying that those stresses that you talked about are daily dealt with by all people, so it doesn't make sense for an employer to be paying for that.

the employer is paying for that regardless. They are the cause. People use their health insurance to pay for therapy, for medical bills and etc.

Woah, just got back on here after a year-long hiatus and man did I miss a lot! This is @AbbyAlways 's new account. Hey everyone! How's everything? I hope you all haven't forgotten me yet! What are we debating currently?

Hmm. I abandoned the last one. But I believe it had to do with minimum wage.

Have you ever been to a Starbucks? I used to work at one that had lines out the door every single day. When I worked at the mall people would trail in with no regard for anything else but especially not the employees. Breaks in retail is the 5 seconds of breathing you get between each task.

How horrible. But aren't they being payed for all that time?

Workers are only replaceable if there are workers. Which is what I keep saying.

But there will always be more to replace all who leave as everyone is desperate for money.

Everyone deserves the right to live comfortably. To be able to provide through their hard work.
Everyone deserves the right to live happily and safe and that includes having the proper resources to support themselves and their families if need be.

Does the right to live comfortably mean that everyone should have it no matter what? And if it is directly tied to work, does it mean that all are owed high paying jobs?

y'all I found my new profile picture

And It’s covered in hearts cause you love it very very much and aren’t an absolute degenerate in the slightest

My new profile picture too

Ah, it's no longer edgy!

If I used my favorite picrews then people would notice how much I look like one of my characters lol

Ah, it's no longer edgy!

I changed it back today. I am no longer edgy. Just tired

Ah, it's no longer edgy!

I changed it back today. I am no longer edgy. Just tired

"No longer edgy. Just tired." is basically everyone's transition from middle school to high school.

Ah, it's no longer edgy!

I changed it back today. I am no longer edgy. Just tired

"No longer edgy. Just tired." is basically everyone's transition from middle school to high school.

haha depressed and tired amiright?